tv [untitled] October 24, 2013 1:30pm-2:01pm EDT
i mean conflict i think your mandate at least in the past was prosecuting crimes and i think just last year your very very straightforward about calling assad a criminal for what you called indiscriminate killings of civilians now of course this is something that many other countries like russia and china would dispute and i still would like to press you on this point what do you think are the crimes being committed in syria specifically by them you know or says i'm sorry i'm sorry i never mention one you cannot have one war of them from me talking about syria i say nothing nothing because we as a prosecutor of the international court we are not use external syria now but it was already laid down the year you started commenting on syria believe it was just last year and i believe we have a sound bite to prove that point when you gave the interview to c b c the economic canadian broadcaster and you actually called for referring assad to by the un
security council to the i.c.c. and what you said back down is that the i.c.c. should act in conjunction with nater let's hear exactly what you had to say back then suppose the security council referred the case the international criminal court and supposed international court preparing by minigames assad because he is a commander in chief and there are absolutely clear killing of civilians there then the issue is east international media ready to say ok we request not to to prepare another who aren't. an implementor who on again assad in syria and he did not receive instructions assad would negotiate there now obviously syria is not a party to the i.c.c. does but if you believe the un referral but i wonder why would your adverb bring nader into the question because as you know the idea of nader acting as court martials for the i.c.c.
is a total no go for both russia and china and if you believe in the impartiality of the court why would you need not and they'd are in the in the picture you're maybe we need not feel bored or the concept i will turn to explain is. we can use in a much more smarter way intervention international communal court anomaly. people say ok but just agree since you wouldn't have no influence that's why i would mention me to the forces if there is a prospect of an international criminal investigation that would be enforce it that would be people we arrested venn that would create incentives to do it different was he asian the real negotiation of the crimes that's all the consulate to present is the pragmatic approach but mr moran our company why would we need to involve both the i.c.c. or possibly nato what again because we first need to establish whether or not there
are any crimes committed saw coming back to the same issue what could possibly be the charges against president bashar assad why didn't need to involve the i.c.c. in the first place the drawing in syria is their records committing crimes but it's obvious that they are also members of the government of their armed forces attacking civilians and that is confirm it then we should investigate who gave the orders that is why dimension to assad because when you have the army operating you assume the commander in chief also right that so i think suspicions that in the crimes committed by the government where top officials in board it is a clear suspicion that should be clarified and you better get it and i never say someone is guilty should be mitigated it's an important clarification but i think the killing of civilians or the collateral damage as americans call it. in and of
itself does not represent strong grounds for prosecution because if we take your own example you know when you are investigated crimes committed against civilians in iraq by the british forces over whom you had jurisdiction back then you concluded that indeed civilians were killed by the british forces in iraq and that thousands and yet you found no ground to go ahead with the. prosecution no let me correct you when we found the british soldiers who were involved in few we three killings and. the torture some individuals but mostly were combatants so they were conducting national proceedings in some way because they signed as you see they know the british know that if they are not committing the crimes we will do it so basically what we found information about some incident what we can see isolated incidents individually people doing some individual crimes
. was not a widespread attack against civilians and basically they conduct investigations that's why we did not intervene in iraq but mr miller and i come by i don't think we need. any endorsement or any even proof from there has to say on that matter that the british involvement in iraq killed civilians i mean i don't think it's being disputed i think it's it is something that even the british government recognizes that thousands of people in iraq were killed as a direct result of british involvement is that not the case look this was we conduct this examination like this seven years ago in those days information we have available for that was that there were isolated incident there was not a planning to attack a specific little civilians. doesn't even with libya when we meet again gaddafi we found evidence that the government for the world should concede billions with live
ammunition on the streets we don't find the similar evidence in the case of iraq i would like to discuss the libyan case a bit later on but let's come back to the syrian issue which is the most pressing geopolitical issue in the world these days i don't just recently you published an opinion piece advocating the notion of temporal justice for syria sensually saying that lads tell both of the army and the rebels that starting from january first two thousand. teen every crime committed in syria will be investigated but i think from the point of view of both legality and international justice it's a very controversial proposition because essentially what you're saying is that you know we will go off to you for the crimes you commit later on but in the meantime feel free to have a killing spree and know that the following legally today there is no interest or justice in syria because the goal the first goal is to keep top crimes i was adjusting the proposed ok will be international justice from first
generally. going on so that create incentives and even promote a different environment to jeannie where they go see asians to stop the grunts before general first but doesn't that in itself to mind the whole notion of international justice because i would assume that both no government and the rebels should fill the pressure of international justice if they commit crimes now they should know that they will be prosecuted isn't that ultimately what actions are all about what the international justice the i.c.c. is all about it's great that you mention that because then you have a like the problem today today there is no possibility to intervene in syria because syria as russia has us china has many other kinds of libya they did not ratify the treaty therefore they are not under the i.c.c. the only way to get syria under the sea is if the u.n.
security council decide to do it as it decided to do it in libya so libya was a case where all the countries the fifty member of the security council decided to justice because libya was not member but to give the country or the by working both justice but i think it leave is also one of the main reasons why all those manned all those members of the u.n. security council that supported the i.c.c. referral back down no longer want to back a day i think they're. lot of questions about the execution of the i.c.c. mandate in libya but before we go there can i ask you one question that is only conventionally related to syria and it is about a ugandan rebel leader joseph kwame i know that during your term as chief prosecutor you were very passionate about the need to bring him to justice and if you compare the lord's resistance army that operated in uganda and later in congo and the militarized opposition i think there are a lot of similarities now both fought against the oppression of the government both
wanted to create a theocracy instead of a secular government both use child soldiers both were involved in clans even and a serial massacres and in both in the case of uganda and syria millions of people were displaced because of that actions now the i.c.c. it was very firm on the uganda joseph connie was indicted and he had for some reason really almost never hear anyone associated with the i.c.c. calling for. similar action against the syrian rebels i agree with you. to see them grows out committing crimes and they should be based again in the same way that they. were committing crimes they should investigate it i agree with you that the concept ok wrote recently agree but mr moran and company have to take a very short break now but when we come back discussing international actions in fear isn't possible without invoking billy b.
and finale or was it a striking success or an irredeemable failure of the i.c.c. well that's coming out in a few moments on worlds apart. right . first strike. and i think the church. played on our reporters played an instrument. to be on the no limit on law. pledge mission and free accreditation free zones for charges free
to make amends free risk free studio time free. download free blog plug in video for your media projects a free media dog r t v dot com. welcome back to worlds apart a real discussing the state of global justice with the former chief prosecutor of the international criminal court luis moreno ocampo mr moran a compass you always sought to present the us to see leave involvement as a success and indeed if you look back all the un security council members agreed unanimously on referring libya to the i.c.c. you managed to start your investigation fairly early in the conflict and it seemed likely be of presenting a real momentum for the r.c.c. to reassert its role in global politics but two and
a half years later i think all those hopes of reasserting the r.c.c. role have been decimated russia china india all those countries that supported the i.c.c. referral unanimously back ban. one nothing to do with the i.c.c. on the case of syria i wonder what and who do you think is to blame i was present differently in fact the western countries did not as intervention in syria when russia veto there was no mention to i.c.c. but my feeling is the real problem in libya was not. in the solution. in the use of force valve was a divisive while and i think that was indeed a very divisive point but i think your own conduct in the days after the i.c.c. referral was also a major issue and i think many in this country felt that. you sought to convict
gaddafi in the court of public opinion before you even had a chance to indict him that you put media attention before any legal proceedings and by doing that many feel that you were actually on to mind the credibility of these great institution with the case i took just the first ten days. when the with a very clear cut situation where. forces were shooting civilians i collect evidence about six or seven incidents with four hundred people killed and i present this first case to the international criminal court judges and they got review and indictment. of course they're not the only crimes committed in libya because after my ten days. investigation there were months of an armed conflict with many type of crimes into the killing of south. we never start the case on that
because they see what's happening with the new world and we're saying they will do justice now and in fact there is a debate about it should be pursued in libya or in the i.c.c. so there you have this done eyes intervention should be minimalistic but i'm not disputing that there were crimes going to evidence but i would challenge your point saying that. they initially i.c.c. involvement in the nation events were a clear cut because it wasn't been gazi in february and the crowds that were at tacking police stations and to keep a military base there were in civilians there were armed militia but moving beyond that point what i'm primarily interested in is that the claims that you made later on and more specifically your claims about gaddafi supposedly giving its army sexually enhanced saying drugs to facilitate a systematic campaign of rape let's remind our viewers how exactly you phrased it
we're finding some elements confirming this issue of appreciation of. biography by proof of. medicament. showing the policy now they were buying the containers with product to enhance the possibly do great going. here citing strong evidence do you still believe that there is evidence for strong i say. i say we're trying to confirm that that's the way in which the line started but mr moran and you say wasn't a muslim this you from you made that statement before you even had been diving mr gaddafi on those crimes you went to the court of public affairs opinion but you are the one from the i.c.c. that shows your assignment of priorities i think. on this issue my concern was we in those days we presented evidence and we against i would have the evidence
that the shooting. torture we have seen is a leg asians of rapes massive rapes but in a very difficult context because in libya families reject even to talk about that even gaz rape and could be killed due to color the shame for the family so it's a very complicated situation very sensitive issue there no cannot question about that but later on just days after you made this statement amnesty international human rights watch doctors without borders and the international crisis group investigated those claims and they all sad that they were absolutely no evidence for claims of systematic rape moreover amnesty international said that rebels at times appeared to have knowingly made false claims or manufactured evidence so as things that stand now at this point it was a ruse there was never ever any avid dance to support that claim and here you are
as the chief prosecutor of the world's highest court you went public with those allegations and those allegations how to turn global public opinion against gadhafi look we have evidence we have in our investigation different human i watch and i mr national i believe we have better investigations we collect information that the worst showing us the massive number of good girls who are that attended in hospitals with. some cases in the view of the people telling us what happened but they were not ready to talk openly and we had this information of biography thing that was where i say i was trying to confirm in fact it was a marginal comment i did i became a b. headline i'm sorry for that for me was just trying to be. sincere saying ok these are the lines we are investigating and i say in this in this statement you
mention i say confirming i would tend to confirm but why why you believe i can turning that's the that's the big the accusation against the head of state why would you go to the media before you are considering that you have them not i would say i mean there were many question there was in a press conference asking me what kind it was a rape were not why you're not investigating the rapes that was a question i say we are playing what we were doing i never say we have you ever ready ok so that was the tradition of that in any case the case with the about killings and torture were confirmed by the judges so we have a case they can get after a very strong on killings and torture maybe you have a case maybe you don't because i mean those those evidence have never been presented in the courtroom and as i'm sure you know a good office safe will islam has been held in detention in libya for more than two years without any access to a lawyer in addition to him there are around ten thousand other prisoners all
across the country that are held in even harsher conditions on the top of that thousands of people on this has been documented have been executed in libya without any trial at all for just being labeled get off of oil is so this is the state of justice in libya and i wonder when you say that the libyan case was a success when you say that it was a good solution i wonder good for whom because success rate is the term for it prancing in humanity or a genocide situation into chaos care with no crimes ten time with crimes against humanity that's that's the crazy thing i see is not reforming libya into sweden or russia leaving is better now because as i said the crimes a very complicated situation but there are no massive atrocities. in this crowd as a result of the trust that is when every human rights organization reports to the
contrary there is absolutely no war in order in libya people are being killed people being buried but the i.c.c. has never investigated or has never brought a single case against the libi and brought militia leaders can face justice. and it will try to defy those who commit their wars crimes and it that way for us was obvious that this shooting of civilians on the streets was a crimes against humanity after that who which are the groups committee must or others in libya was not easy in my time because i'm a conflict or thirty thousand people die i see this vision today i am i the news did exactly the day. but i believe this is a national government and there's a debate you mentioned you've got us the situation is interesting because i see no want to go to the i.c.c. he sees i.c.c. as a gandhi for him and that's another part of the role of i.c.c.
as far as he's concerned it's a better of the two evils and i just interviewed his lawyer and couple of weeks ago i know obviously he still believes that the i.c.c. is a mickey mouse trial as he calls it but the problem is that the current state of levy and justice is so poor and that more people have been killed in libya since the i.c.c. involvement and since nato involvement than during the time of gaddafi and during the suppression of the pro of the protests that you just cited i cannot agree to this court because this judges from eighteen countries the court is doing its job is a very complicated job and a very complex but the fact that saif gadhafi tried to go to a to see showing him using the wall is less primitive now because we have an international criminal court ready to go when we need it and that is an evolution that's an interesting statement because i would argue that the court is not ready
to act precisely of the way it active in libya it's not ready to act on syria because of all the mistakes and all the political meddling that was conducted during the libyan involvement but can i just press you on the libyan case because given the state of justice in libya these days and the isis is still has a mandate over libya and the man it wasn't to bring to account just gadhafi the mandate was to punish everybody who was committing crimes against humanity and as we just established crimes against humanity and maybe even war crimes are still being committed in libya do you think in the current circumstances the court has any leverage the court has any possibility of bringing those two. committing those crimes to justice look my feeling is we need to take advantage of the existence of the court if people like you believe there see used were granted continue medical media by rebel forces the best way would be to present the case to the court
sending any citizen in the world has the right to send the communication to the court of course if you send videos and strong evidence the court should answer that so for me to say all they've got to do nothing promote action in court you have the right to do it well i predict that if there were a similar incisions were presented with can do really because the court has just ordered faithful islam be transferred to the hague it has issued several warrants and the militia in libya they defined it was born sunday there is absolutely no power in the world that will make be it currently being authorities to transfer safe a list to the i.c.c. so what's the point of even launching those proceedings when the i.c.c. is so toothless and powerless when it comes to libya is interesting you say that because for me the present today is in fact the national going to libya libyan national government has no power to try to take so you can se who is still in
the hands of the militia and that's a very accurate situation is very strange is a weird situation because who would have a national government everyone because nothing government but they go and look to the control even its own militias so if this iteration is so complicated and you side and you still side the libyan case as a success and as a path to follow when it comes to syria why do you think anyone should trust the i.c.c. the on the syrian issue why should should china russia india all those countries that are poor opposed to the referral of bashar al assad to the i.c.c. why should they trust it's going to be any better than it isn't in syria i'm sorry china russia never have. poe's reset of i.c.c. to in syria in fact no one proposed it so china and russia veto was not about as you see was never presented absolutely but i don't even go there russian officials here in moscow and they would never even if such
a resolution was stable in the security council for the referral of bashar al assad to the i.c.c. russia would never support it precisely because it doesn't trust the credibility of the i.c.c. because of the whole libyan experience look i think as you say it's important to understand the cap in libya and to have different views but russia has a lot if they believe that in libya there have to be more people indicted they got percent information to the i.c.c. or in syria my proposal this recent month wanted to see they tried to use eyes to see as a way to these trade the commission you crimes because that's the main goal look in kenya today people confuse about kenya the main achievement of i see kenya was that induces on thirteen there was a peace through election in kenya and it's interesting that being they tease one direction and now this is strange you do asian where the press and the by president kennedy are indicted by the i.c.c. but what i understand i see was
a factor helping to cover it piece through election and i see it's not in the intervening who that we have election well mr moran oh come president has pointed out every case that the i.c.c. got him itself involved in is very strange but unfortunately this is all we have time for for our viewers please join us again same place same time here and while the party. you don't know if you don't per car. responds to ruse. most everyone in my life that i cared about their goal but now that i came to skate well.
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